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Episode 12 – The Two Liturgies: External and Internal – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg, Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss the concept of “two liturgies”—the external liturgy of the Eucharist and the internal, spiritual liturgy in the heart, where the Holy Spirit continually prays. The idea that true theology is not merely academic but lived out in the life of everyday believers, represented by figures like “Mrs. Murphy,” who embody practical, lived theology through their faith and actions.

The Christian journey towards deification, the process of becoming more like God, which is often met with humility or hesitation by believers. However, Christianity is not just a moral code but an invitation to participate in the divine life of the Trinity. Words and concepts in theology can become “worn smooth” over time, losing their impact, and theologians and artists play an important role in revitalizing these truths for contemporary believers.

Encountering Christ in both sacred and secular spaces, and the liturgical experience, transforms how one views the world. They reflect on how the cycles of liturgy and life, including moments of illness, aging, and everyday struggles, are all part of God’s work in shaping a person’s spiritual journey.

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Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

• The Noetic faculty in the heart (meaning perception of the heart)
• Hesychia – stilleness, rest, quiet, silence

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“I’m looking for a quote, it’s from a contemporary Orthodox Metropolitan named Hierotheos, and he says, if the noetic faculty in the heart is operating, then we can come in contact with, what he calls, a second liturgy, “something happens that seems strange to most people, but is natural for those who consciously practice hesychia.” This is a silence, contemplative. “Although they are present at the Divine Eucharist and are aware through their senses and their reason of everything going on,” those are the first two faculties that I identified, “they’re listening at the same time to the noetic faculty in the heart where the Holy Spirit praises without ceasing. Lord Jesus Christ’s son of God have mercy on me.”

In other words, there are two liturgies. One is the external liturgy of the Divine Eucharist, where the bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ in the Holy Spirit. The other is the inner liturgy or Eucharist, where they experience uncreated worship and the spiritual priest of divine grace celebrates. There’s no break between the two liturgies. Both are accomplished with full awareness. The Holy Spirit changes the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood, and the same Holy Spirit activates noetic prayer on the altar of the heart.

Well, by talking about aestheticism and mysticism, my purpose has been to try to make us think about… That sounds like I just denied everything I’ve been saying. I’m trying to make us think about something, make us think about this synergy going on, and I am trying to make us think about it. I’m writing books about Mrs. Murphy. I don’t want her to read them, but I write about Mrs. Murphy for my colleagues. So that my colleagues, I made a sweeping gesture to mean the academic world, so that they don’t look down their noses at Mrs. Murphy. My lesson from Aidan Kavanagh and the thesis is that Mrs. Murphy is a true theologian and I’m making an apologetic for her.”

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Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

1. Understanding the Two Liturgies: How do the external and internal liturgies influence your relationship with God?
2. Recognizing Your Inner Mrs. Murphy: In what ways do you embody practical theology in your everyday life?
3. Embracing Deification: How open are you to the idea of ascending into deification, and what steps can you take toward it?
4. Reclaiming Lost Words: Which spiritual or theological terms have lost their impact on you, and how can you rediscover their depth?
5. Encountering Christ in the World: Where do you most frequently encounter Christ in your daily life, and how do you respond?
6. Embracing the Spiritual Journey: How do you perceive the cyclical nature of spiritual growth, and where are you in your journey?
7. Contemplating Life’s Purpose: Reflect on the entirety of your life as a spiritual offering to God—how are you preparing for your final encounter with Him?

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For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

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David W. Fagerberg is Professor in the Department of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. He holds masters degrees from Luther Northwestern Seminary, St. John’s University (Collegeville), Yale Divinity School, and Yale University. His Ph.D. is from Yale University in liturgical theology.

Fagerberg’s work has explored how the Church’s lex credendi (law of belief) is founded upon the Church’s lex orandi (law of prayer). This was expressed in Theologia Prima (Hillenbrand Books, 2003). He has integrated into this the Eastern Orthodox understanding of asceticism by considering its role in preparing the liturgical person. This was treated in On Liturgical Asceticism (Catholic University Press, 2013). And these two themes come together in Consecrating the World: On Mundane Liturgical Theology (Angelico Press, 2016).

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

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Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

 

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Episode 11 – Ascetical Struggle and a Mystical Joy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg, Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor explore a dense definition of liturgy as “the resis of the Trinity canonically extended to invite our synergistic ascent into deification”.  Dr. Fagerberg explains that liturgy is not just a human ritual but the active work of God in the cosmos, drawing participants into the divine life. Touching on various aspects of liturgical participation, including the struggle many people feel in engaging with liturgy due to distractions or personal preferences, Dr. Fagerberg advises approaching liturgy as a sacred “tryst” with God, a meeting between divine and human lovers, where the focus should be on prayer rather than criticism.

They discuss the concept of liturgy as a transformative process that requires both God’s grace and human cooperation. Dr. Fagerberg contrasts this with an automatic, thoughtless participation, urging a more intentional and spiritually prepared engagement. He introduces the idea of liturgical asceticism, where one develops capacities for deeper liturgical participation over a lifetime, akin to preparing for the “eighth day” or the eschatological fulfillment in the resurrection.

This goes into the notion of liturgical time, distinguishing between “Kronos” (ordinary time) and “Kairos” (sacred time), and how liturgy allows worshippers to step into this sacred time, experiencing a reality larger than the temporal world. They discuss how different people, like theologians or laypersons, may apprehend liturgy differently, but all are invited to enter into its mystery with a heart prepared by spiritual practices, such as contemplation and asceticism.

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Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

• The definition of liturgy: Liturgy is the perichoresis of the Trinity kenotically extended to invite our synergistic ascent into deification.

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“This is why it’s important for worshiping on Sunday, the Lord’s Day for the Lord’s people in the Lord’s house at the Lord’s table. Sunday is this eighth day, the day of the resurrection. After six days of creation, got rested on the seventh, and when humanity fell into sin, God had to act again. So Sunday, the day of resurrection, is like one more day in the Book of Genesis being added as an appendix. And Taft says to anyone beginning the study of Sunday, “The initial impression is one of confusion.” Sunday is the first day, the day of creation, the day of light, the day of the new time. I think it’s just named the cosmic dimensions of Sunday, but it’s also the last day, the eighth day, the day beyond the days, the day of Jubilee, the day of the end time.

Now he has named the eschatological dimensions of Sunday. It’s the day of the resurrection, the day of the post-resurrection appearances and meals. Watch for that in the scripture readings eight days later on Sunday. It’s the day of the descent of the Spirit and the day of the ascension. These are the historical Jesus days.

And then, he gives finally the ecclesiological church meanings. The day of the assembly, the day of the Eucharist, the day of baptism, the day of ordinations. Until one asks, “Is there anything Sunday doesn’t mean?” And the answer of course, is no. For the early Church Sunday was indeed everything. The symbolic day, a sign of the time of the church between ascension and parousia, the time in which we are living now, it’s the day symbolic of all days for… And here’s the quote, which I stumbled on in our earlier conversation so I can slip it in here. “It’s a day symbolic of all days for the purpose of all Christian liturgy is to express in a ritual moment that which should be the basic stance of every moment of our lives.”

Once a year you celebrate a birthday in a ritual way, but that doesn’t mean you don’t love your kid for the other 364 days. Once a week, you enter into this Eucharistic uplift and twist with God, but that doesn’t mean you forget about him for the other days of the week. What you do on Sunday morning should be an expression of the basic stance of every day, of every hour, of every moment. Well, that seems to me like an ascetical struggle and a mystical joy.”

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Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

1. Understanding Liturgy’s Divine Nature: How does recognizing liturgy as the active work of God in the cosmos, rather than a mere human ritual, change your approach to participating in it?
2. Entering Sacred Time: How can you become more aware of the transition from “Kronos” to “Kairos” during the liturgy, and what practices might help you prepare for this sacred encounter?
3. Prayerful Participation: In what ways can you focus more on prayer and less on criticism during liturgical celebrations, especially when distractions arise?
4. Liturgy as a Tryst with God: How does viewing liturgy as a meeting between divine and human lovers influence your relationship with God during the Mass?
5. Developing Liturgical Capacities: What steps can you take to cultivate the spiritual capacities needed for a deeper, more transformative participation in the liturgy?
6. Balancing Grace and Cooperation: How do you understand the balance between God’s grace and your own cooperation in the liturgical experience, and how can this understanding enhance your spiritual life?
7. The Role of Asceticism in Liturgy: How might embracing a more ascetical approach to your spiritual life prepare you for a fuller participation in the liturgy and the life of the Church?

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For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

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David W. Fagerberg is Professor in the Department of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. He holds masters degrees from Luther Northwestern Seminary, St. John’s University (Collegeville), Yale Divinity School, and Yale University. His Ph.D. is from Yale University in liturgical theology.

Fagerberg’s work has explored how the Church’s lex credendi (law of belief) is founded upon the Church’s lex orandi (law of prayer). This was expressed in Theologia Prima (Hillenbrand Books, 2003). He has integrated into this the Eastern Orthodox understanding of asceticism by considering its role in preparing the liturgical person. This was treated in On Liturgical Asceticism (Catholic University Press, 2013). And these two themes come together in Consecrating the World: On Mundane Liturgical Theology (Angelico Press, 2016).

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

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Episode 10 – The Inward then Outward, Upward then Downward Movement of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss how marriage, as a sacrament, symbolizes the union between Christ and the Church, reflecting God’s original plan before the Fall. Discussing asceticism in the context of both Eden and our current spiritual practices; and how living in an upright manner aligns with God’s original justice, they delve into the concept of liturgy as a two-way movement, where the faithful ascend into the heavenly realms, and the Holy Spirit descends upon the assembly.

The mystery and beauty of sacraments, particularly the Eucharist and reconciliation, Dr. Fagerberg uses vivid metaphors to illustrate how sacraments reconnect believers with God, especially after sin has disrupted their relationship.

Mysticism is discussed as an integral part of Christian life, not a separate path but a deeper way of walking the path laid by Christ. With repetition in spiritual practices, it fosters a deep and steady communion with God, preparing the soul for the ultimate mystical union in heaven.

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From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“This is from my theological diary once more. There are two movements in the liturgy and the Greek language identified them as anabatic and katabatic. Basis means to go. Anabatic is to go up. Katabatic is to go down. The anabatic movement in liturgy is our ascent into the heavenly realms. Lift up your hearts. The katabatic is the spirit’s descent upon the assembly and the sacrifice.

Oh, the dictionary includes a meteorological definition for Anabasis as well. It says pertaining to an uphill wind produced by the effects of local heating. No wait. That’s a Pentecostal definition. The dictionary also gives a spatial metaphor. Anabasis, it says, is a march from the coast to the interior, where in silence one will find the Holy Spirit waiting. While Catabasis is a march from the interior of a country to the coast, where in need one will find the world waiting.

Every liturgy is a two-way march inward then outward, or upward then downward. But here’s the paragraph that made me think of it now and this is just especially for you in your tornado. The prefix acro means aloft. The Holy Spirit restores Adam and Eve’s wings making us liturgical acrobats, acrobasis, tumbling twirling, doing barrel rolls with the angels above the altar. Liturgical aestheticism lightens one’s gravity and increases the measure of our liturgical capacity.

So I’ll open a summer camp for liturgical acrobats and the people who have a thin definition will think that I’m actually doing something like a clown liturgy, but will actually start with prayer fasting and alms giving. Try to overcome the passions, learn how to overcome the passions so that we could become lofty liturgists twirling aloft. Acrobasis. I told you I don’t know other languages. I mean, I’m just bad at it. I passed my language exams, but I do like single words and they just turn like a ruby. They don’t have all those other words cluttering up the sentence, those single words are just gems to me.”

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Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

1. The Sacramental Union in Marriage: How does your marriage (or relationships) reflect the union between Christ and the Church?
2. Original Justice and Asceticism: In what ways can you practice asceticism in your life to align more closely with God’s original plan for humanity?
3. Liturgy as Spiritual Ascent: How can you more consciously participate in the liturgical ascent and descent during Mass to deepen your connection with God?
4. Reconciliation and Renewal: Do you view the Sacrament of Reconciliation as a “kickstart” for your spiritual life, and how can it help restore your relationship with God?
5. The Role of Mysticism: How do you understand mysticism within your faith journey, and how can you begin to cultivate a mystical life grounded in the sacraments?
6. The Power of Repetition: What spiritual practices in your life need more consistent repetition to build a deeper and more stable relationship with God?
7. Communion with God in Everyday Life: How can you foster a continuous, habitual communion with God, even in the ordinary moments of daily life?

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For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

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David W. Fagerberg is Professor in the Department of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. He holds masters degrees from Luther Northwestern Seminary, St. John’s University (Collegeville), Yale Divinity School, and Yale University. His Ph.D. is from Yale University in liturgical theology.

Fagerberg’s work has explored how the Church’s lex credendi (law of belief) is founded upon the Church’s lex orandi (law of prayer). This was expressed in Theologia Prima (Hillenbrand Books, 2003). He has integrated into this the Eastern Orthodox understanding of asceticism by considering its role in preparing the liturgical person. This was treated in On Liturgical Asceticism (Catholic University Press, 2013). And these two themes come together in Consecrating the World: On Mundane Liturgical Theology (Angelico Press, 2016).

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books: