PSM12 – The Two Liturgies: External and Internal – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

Liturgical Theology

Episode 12 – The Two Liturgies: External and Internal – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg, Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss the concept of “two liturgies”—the external liturgy of the Eucharist and the internal, spiritual liturgy in the heart, where the Holy Spirit continually prays. The idea that true theology is not merely academic but lived out in the life of everyday believers, represented by figures like “Mrs. Murphy,” who embody practical, lived theology through their faith and actions.

The Christian journey towards deification, the process of becoming more like God, which is often met with humility or hesitation by believers. However, Christianity is not just a moral code but an invitation to participate in the divine life of the Trinity. Words and concepts in theology can become “worn smooth” over time, losing their impact, and theologians and artists play an important role in revitalizing these truths for contemporary believers.

Encountering Christ in both sacred and secular spaces, and the liturgical experience, transforms how one views the world. They reflect on how the cycles of liturgy and life, including moments of illness, aging, and everyday struggles, are all part of God’s work in shaping a person’s spiritual journey.


Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

  • The Noetic faculty in the heart (meaning perception of the heart)
  • Hesychia – stilleness, rest, quiet, silence

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“I’m looking for a quote, it’s from a contemporary Orthodox Metropolitan named Hierotheos, and he says, if the noetic faculty in the heart is operating, then we can come in contact with, what he calls, a second liturgy, “something happens that seems strange to most people, but is natural for those who consciously practice hesychia.” This is a silence, contemplative. “Although they are present at the Divine Eucharist and are aware through their senses and their reason of everything going on,” those are the first two faculties that I identified, “they’re listening at the same time to the noetic faculty in the heart where the Holy Spirit praises without ceasing. Lord Jesus Christ’s son of God have mercy on me.”

In other words, there are two liturgies. One is the external liturgy of the Divine Eucharist, where the bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ in the Holy Spirit. The other is the inner liturgy or Eucharist, where they experience uncreated worship and the spiritual priest of divine grace celebrates. There’s no break between the two liturgies. Both are accomplished with full awareness. The Holy Spirit changes the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood, and the same Holy Spirit activates noetic prayer on the altar of the heart.

Well, by talking about aestheticism and mysticism, my purpose has been to try to make us think about… That sounds like I just denied everything I’ve been saying. I’m trying to make us think about something, make us think about this synergy going on, and I am trying to make us think about it. I’m writing books about Mrs. Murphy. I don’t want her to read them, but I write about Mrs. Murphy for my colleagues. So that my colleagues, I made a sweeping gesture to mean the academic world, so that they don’t look down their noses at Mrs. Murphy. My lesson from Aidan Kavanagh and the thesis is that Mrs. Murphy is a true theologian and I’m making an apologetic for her.”


Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

  1. Understanding the Two Liturgies: How do the external and internal liturgies influence your relationship with God?
  2. Recognizing Your Inner Mrs. Murphy: In what ways do you embody practical theology in your everyday life?
  3. Embracing Deification: How open are you to the idea of ascending into deification, and what steps can you take toward it?
  4. Reclaiming Lost Words: Which spiritual or theological terms have lost their impact on you, and how can you rediscover their depth?
  5. Encountering Christ in the World: Where do you most frequently encounter Christ in your daily life, and how do you respond?
  6. Embracing the Spiritual Journey: How do you perceive the cyclical nature of spiritual growth, and where are you in your journey?
  7. Contemplating Life’s Purpose: Reflect on the entirety of your life as a spiritual offering to God—how are you preparing for your final encounter with Him?

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page


David W. Fagerberg is Professor in the Department of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. He holds masters degrees from Luther Northwestern Seminary, St. John’s University (Collegeville), Yale Divinity School, and Yale University. His Ph.D. is from Yale University in liturgical theology.

Fagerberg’s work has explored how the Church’s lex credendi (law of belief) is founded upon the Church’s lex orandi (law of prayer). This was expressed in Theologia Prima (Hillenbrand Books, 2003). He has integrated into this the Eastern Orthodox understanding of asceticism by considering its role in preparing the liturgical person. This was treated in On Liturgical Asceticism (Catholic University Press, 2013). And these two themes come together in Consecrating the World: On Mundane Liturgical Theology (Angelico Press, 2016).

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:
Liturgical Theology Liturgical Mysticism Liturgical Theology Theological Theology


Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:
Liturgical Theology Liturgical Mysticism Liturgical Theology Theological Theology

 

BTP1 El Cielo en la Fe Día 1 Oración 1 por Santa Isabel de la Trinidad – Comenzando a orar con el Dr. Anthony Lilles – Podcast Corazones Discernientes

Episodio 1 – El Cielo en la Fe Día 1 Oración 1 por Santa Isabel de la Trinidad – Comenzando a orar con el Dr. Anthony Lilles – Podcast Corazones Discernientes

El primer episodio del podcast, presentado por Kris McGregor con el Dr. Anthony Lilles, profundiza en el retiro  El cielo en la fe de Santa Isabel de la Trinidad. El Dr. Lilles, experto en espiritualidad carmelita, destaca la importancia de Santa Isabel de la Trinidad, una mística carmelita de Dijon, que hizo hincapié en la oración profunda y en un encuentro transformador con Cristo accesible a todos los católicos. El retiro de Santa Isabel, destinado a su hermana, es una guía para fomentar una relación profunda y personal con Dios a través de la oración, que consiste en reflexiones diarias para la contemplación.


San Juan Pablo II, notablemente influido por Isabel, ejemplifica su amplio impacto, mostrando su papel en la profundización de la vida espiritual de muchos, incluida la suya propia. A pesar de su limitado acceso a la Biblia completa, las reflexiones de Isabel demuestran un profundo compromiso con las Escrituras, semejante a la Lectio Divina, mostrando su profunda comprensión e integración de las Escrituras en sus reflexiones sobre la oración y la comunión con Dios.

La primera reflexión de Elizabeth se centra en el deseo de Jesús de que estemos en comunión con Él y con el Padre, destacando el aspecto personal y relacional de la oración. Elizabeth explica que experimentar el cielo, o vivir en comunión con Dios, no se limita al más allá, sino que comienza en el presente a través de la fe y la oración. Insiste en la llamada universal a la santidad, afirmando que todos los cristianos, independientemente de las circunstancias de su vida, están invitados a compartir esta comunión con Dios, que se alcanza dando prioridad a la oración en sus vidas.

Este episodio sienta las bases de una serie que promete explorar las profundidades de la espiritualidad carmelita y las profundas ideas de Santa Isabel de la Trinidad sobre la oración, la comunión con Dios y la búsqueda de la santidad en la vida cotidiana.


Día 1 – Primera oración

1. “Padre, quiero que donde yo estoy estén también conmigo los que Tú me has dado, para que contemplen mi gloria que Tú me has dado, porque Tú me has amado desde antes de la creación del mundo». 1 Tal es el último deseo de Cristo, su oración suprema antes de volver a su Padre. Quiere que donde Él está nosotros estemos también, no sólo por la eternidad, sino ya en el tiempo, que es eternidad comenzada y aún en curso. Es importante, pues, saber dónde debemos vivir con Él para realizar su sueño divino. «El lugar donde está escondido el Hijo de Dios es el seno del Padre, o la Esencia divina, invisible a todo ojo mortal, inalcanzable para todo intelecto humano»,2 como dijo Isaías: «Verdaderamente Tú eres un Dios oculto». 3 Y, sin embargo, su voluntad es que estemos establecidos en Él, que vivamos donde Él vive, en la unidad del amor; que seamos, por así decirlo, su propia sombra. 4

2. Por el bautismo, dice San Pablo, hemos sido unidos a Jesucristo. 5 Y además: «Dios nos sentó juntos en el cielo en Cristo Jesús, para mostrar en los siglos venideros las riquezas de su gracia». 6 Y más adelante: «Ya no sois huéspedes ni forasteros, sino que pertenecéis a la Ciudad de los santos y a la Casa de Dios». 7 La Trinidad: ésta es nuestra morada, nuestro «hogar», la casa del Padre que nunca debemos abandonar. El Maestro dijo un día: «El esclavo no permanece en la casa para siempre, pero el hijo 8 permanece allí para siempre» (San Juan). 9


Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

  1. ¿De qué manera la forma en que Santa Isabel de la Trinidad entiende la oración desafía tu enfoque actual de la oración y de la relación con Dios?
  2. Reflexiona sobre la idea de que el cielo no es sólo un estado futuro, sino una experiencia accesible en el presente a través de la fe y la oración. ¿Cómo cambia esta perspectiva tu visión de la vida cotidiana y de la práctica espiritual?
  3. Santa Isabel subraya la importancia de las Escrituras para profundizar en nuestra relación con Dios, incluso sin tener pleno acceso a la Biblia. ¿Cómo puedes integrar más plenamente las Escrituras en tu vida de oración para fomentar una comunión más estrecha con Dios?
  4. Teniendo en cuenta el deseo de Jesús de estar en comunión con nosotros, tal como lo destaca Santa Isabel, ¿cómo podrías responder más plenamente a este deseo en tu propia vida de fe y oración?
  5. Las reflexiones de santa Isabel pretendían guiar a su hermana, una madre ocupada, en la profundización de su vida espiritual. ¿De qué manera habla esto de la posibilidad de una profunda profundidad espiritual en medio del ajetreo de tus responsabilidades diarias?

Nos gustaría dar las gracias a Miriam Gutiérrez por proporcionar “la voz” de Santa Isabel para esta serie.

Para ver otros episodios de la serie, visite la página Corazones Perspicaces del Dr. Anthony Lilles.


Anthony Lilles, S.T.D., ha servido a la Iglesia y ayudado en la formación del clero y los seminaristas desde 1994. Antes de llegar a San Patricio, trabajó en seminarios y casas de formación de la archidiócesis de Denver y la archidiócesis de Los Ángeles. Hijo de un granjero californiano, casado y con hijos adultos jóvenes, es licenciado en Teología por la Universidad Franciscana de Steubenville y posee tanto la licencia eclesiástica como el doctorado en Teología Espiritual por la Universidad Pontificia Santo Tomás de Aquino de Roma (el Angelicum). Experto en los escritos de Santa Isabel de la Trinidad y de los Doctores Carmelitas de la Iglesia, es cofundador del Instituto de Formación Espiritual de Ávila y del Programa de Alta Vocación para vocaciones sacerdotales. También fundó el Centro Juan Pablo II para la Cultura Contemplativa, que organiza simposios, retiros y conferencias. Además de sus publicaciones, tiene un blog en www.beginningtopray.com .

SISL3 – I Try to Pray, but I’m So Discouraged – Struggles in the Spiritual Life with Fr. Timothy Gallagher – Discerning Hearts Podcasts

I Try to Pray, but I’m So Discouraged – Struggles in the Spiritual Life with Fr. Timothy Gallagher O.M.V.

Fr. Timothy Gallagher and Kris McGregor continue their conversation on struggles in the spiritual life, using the example of a spiritual struggle faced by a woman named Beth. After moving to a new city and starting a new job as a physical therapist, Beth encounters emotional and spiritual challenges, particularly due to a difficult relationship with a coworker named Susan, who is critical and overbearing. This criticism deeply affects Beth, causing her to feel discouraged, isolated, and distant from her prayer life.

Beth’s experience highlights the impact of emotional pain on one’s spiritual life and the importance of not being alone with such struggles; with Fr. Gallagher suggesting that Beth might benefit from counseling, in addition to maintaining healthy habits and seeking support from friends and family. He also reminds us about bringing emotional pain to Jesus, as it is precisely in such vulnerability that one can find deeper connection with God.

The theological principle that “grace presupposes and perfects nature,” means that God’s grace works within our humanity, elevating it. Fr. Gallagher and McGregor explore how both spiritual and human resources, such as counseling and prayer, can help individuals like Beth navigate their struggles. They also touch on how similar issues can affect people in more personal relationships, such as within families, and the importance of seeking both spiritual and practical support.

You can pick up a copy of the book here.


Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

  1. Recognizing Emotional Wounds: Do I identify any past or present emotional wounds that might affect my ability to receive criticism or engage in relationships?
  2. Understanding Triggers: What specific situations or individuals trigger feelings of defenselessness or discouragement in me?
  3. Approaching Prayer Amid Struggles: How do I approach prayer when I’m feeling emotionally drained or discouraged, and do I bring my pain to Jesus?
  4. Seeking Support: Am I open to seeking help, such as counseling or talking to a trusted friend, when I recognize that my emotional struggles are overwhelming?
  5. Balancing Human and Spiritual Resources: How well do I balance using both human means (like exercise and counseling) and spiritual practices to navigate emotional pain?
  6. Avoiding Isolation: When faced with emotional or spiritual struggles, do I tend to isolate myself, or do I seek community and support?
  7. Embracing Vulnerability: Do I view my weaknesses and struggles as barriers to spiritual growth, or do I see them as opportunities to draw closer to God?

An excerpt from the book:

“Yes, the spiritual life is easier when we take wise care of the body. If you struggle in the spiritual life, ask first: How is my physical energy? Do I get enough sleep? Do I exercise sufficiently? Does my diet sustain my energy? If the answers are positive, you may presume that spiritual struggles, should you experience them, arise from a different cause. But it is wise to ask these questions before you presume this.

Sometimes, life simply makes demands on our energy. If John’s pace at work increases still more, if his wife’s illness grows more serious and long-lasting, if he himself faces physical issues, if the children’s needs increase, and the like, then his energy for prayer will be less. God never asks the impossible! John, or any one of us in similar circumstances, can only do our best to care for our energy. Such expenditures of energy, accepted out of love for our vocation — in this case, marriage and fatherhood — bring us closer to God, though our prayer may be more tired. Even in such situations, however, God asks us to care for the body as best we can. And this will bless our prayer.”

Gallagher O.M.V, Fr. Timothy ; Gallagher O.M.V, Fr. Timothy. Struggles in the Spiritual Life: Their Nature and Their Remedies (p. 17). Sophia Institute Press. Kindle Edition.


To find more episodes from this series, visit the Struggles in the Spiritual Life Podcast


From the book’s description: “Here is a powerful, life-changing book that will help you understand and conquer the struggles you face in your spiritual life. It’s a book for those who love the Lord and desire holiness yet often feel adrift or stagnant in their search for spiritual growth.

All of us encounter valleys on our journey with the Lord — those periods of spiritual desolation that are a painful yet unavoidable feature of our prayer life. Spiritual desolation is as complex as we are, so understanding what is happening and responding to it properly are critical to reaching the heights of holiness.

With warmth and understanding, Fr. Gallagher carefully identifies in this book the various forms of spiritual and nonspiritual desolation and supplies the remedy for each. You’ll learn how to discern whether your struggles derive from medical or psychological conditions or whether those struggles are spiritual and permitted by the Lord for reasons of growth. In each case, you’ll be given the remedy for the struggle. You’ll also learn the forms of spiritual dryness and of the Dark Night — and how to respond to them.

In chapter after chapter, Fr. Gallagher presents a particular struggle as experienced by fictional characters and then provides the advice he gives to those who come to him for spiritual direction about that struggle. You’ll gain confidence as you journey through desolation, and you’ll learn to reject the enemy’s ploys to infect you with a sense of hopelessness.


Did you know that Fr. Timothy Gallagher has 14 different podcast series on Discerning Hearts Catholic Podcasts?
Visit here to discover more!

 

Embracing God’s Will with Obedience – Building a Kingdom of Love with Msgr. John Esseff – Discerning Hearts Podcast

Embracing God’s Will with Obedience – Building a Kingdom of Love with Msgr. John Esseff

Msgr. John Esseff and Kris McGregor discuss the deep need for healing in the world and the importance of balancing prayer with action in the Christian life. Msgr. Esseff believes that true Christian ministry must be rooted in a solid prayer life, as actions alone, without a contemplative foundation, can lead to burnout and ineffectiveness. He critiques the focus on external religious practices, such as rituals and appearances, over the internal transformation of the heart. He uses examples to show us the importance of integrating one’s faith into both personal and communal acts of charity.

Msgr. Esseff shares a personal story about his long-standing desire to serve in Latin America, which was repeatedly denied by his bishop. This experience taught him the power of obedience to God’s will and the importance of aligning one’s desires with divine authority. He reflects on the struggle many face in balancing their commitment to serving the Church with their responsibilities to their families, and that one’s primary identity and relationship with Christ should guide all actions.


Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

  1. Understanding the Need for Healing: How do you recognize and address the deep internal pain that might be numbed by external distractions in your life?
  2. Balancing Prayer and Action: In what ways can you ensure that your ministry and actions flow from a solid prayer life?
  3. Examining External Practices: Are there external religious practices in your life that might be overshadowing the need for true interior conversion?
  4. Obedience to God’s Will: How do you discern and align your personal desires with God’s will, especially when facing challenges or obstacles?
  5. Integrating Faith into Daily Life: How can you better integrate your faith into both your personal life and your acts of charity towards others?
  6. Balancing Family and Ministry: Are there areas in your life where your ministry or service to the Church is pulling you away from your primary responsibilities to your family?
  7. Allowing God to Work Through You: How can you deepen your trust in God’s ability to act through you, rather than relying solely on your own strength and efforts?


Msgr. John A. Esseff is a Roman Catholic priest in the Diocese of Scranton.  Msgr. Esseff served as a retreat director and confessor to Saint Teresa of Calcutta.  He continues to offer direction and retreats for the sisters of the Missionaries of Charity.  Msgr. Esseff encountered St. Padre Pio, who would become a spiritual father to him.  He has lived in areas around the world, serving in the Pontifical missions, a Catholic organization established by Pope St. John Paul II to bring the Good News to the world, especially to the poor. He continues to serve as a retreat leader and director to bishops, priests and sisters and seminarians, and other religious leaders .

 

 

 

The Queenship of the Blessed Virgin Mary – Building a Kingdom of Love with Msgr. John Esseff – Discerning Hearts Podcast

The Queenship of the Blessed Virgin Mary – Building a Kingdom of Love with Msgr. John Esseff

Msgr. John Esseff and Kris McGregor discuss the queenship of Mary and her role as the Queen of Heaven and Earth. Beginning with a story from Bishop Sheen about Mary’s maternal love and her ability to open the gates of heaven for everyone, including the outcasts, Msgr. Esseff highlights Mary’s universal motherhood, rooted in her divine maternity, and her tender care for all humanity, particularly the lowly, sick, and suffering.

Reflecting on Mary’s appearances in various apparitions—Guadalupe, Fatima, Lourdes—and her role in guiding souls to heaven, it reminds us of her humility, which allowed her to crush Satan’s head, as symbolized by her title as the Immaculate Conception. Msgr. Esseff also discusses how Mary, as the Queen of Hearts, intercedes for her children, offering gifts through the Miraculous Medal and the power of prayer.

The queenship of Mary serves as a model of love, humility, and intercession for all believers.


Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

  1. Understanding Mary’s Queenship: How does recognizing Mary as the Queen of Heaven and Earth influence your perception of her role in your spiritual life?
  2. Embracing Humility: How can Mary’s example of humility inspire you to place others before yourself in your daily interactions?
  3. Trust in Mary’s Intercession: In what specific areas of your life can you more fully trust in Mary’s powerful intercession and seek her help?
  4. Role of Apparitions: How do the messages of Mary in her apparitions (such as Fatima, Lourdes, and Guadalupe) call you to a deeper conversion and commitment to prayer?
  5. Mary and the Sick: How can you follow Mary’s example by offering support and compassion to those who are sick or suffering around you?
  6. Living Childlike Faith: What practical steps can you take to embrace a childlike faith, fully relying on God’s providence as Mary did?
  7. The Reversal of Roles in Heaven: How does the idea that “the last will be first” challenge your current attitudes and behaviors towards others, especially those who are marginalized?


Msgr. John A. Esseff is a Roman Catholic priest in the Diocese of Scranton.  Msgr. Esseff served as a retreat director and confessor to Saint Teresa of Calcutta.  He continues to offer direction and retreats for the sisters of the Missionaries of Charity.  Msgr. Esseff encountered St. Padre Pio, who would become a spiritual father to him.  He has lived in areas around the world, serving in the Pontifical missions, a Catholic organization established by Pope St. John Paul II to bring the Good News to the world, especially to the poor. He continues to serve as a retreat leader and director to bishops, priests and sisters and seminarians, and other religious leaders .

 

 

 

PSM11 – Ascetical Struggle and a Mystical Joy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

Liturgical Theology

Episode 11 – Ascetical Struggle and a Mystical Joy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg, Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor explore a dense definition of liturgy as “the resis of the Trinity canonically extended to invite our synergistic ascent into deification”.  Dr. Fagerberg explains that liturgy is not just a human ritual but the active work of God in the cosmos, drawing participants into the divine life. Touching on various aspects of liturgical participation, including the struggle many people feel in engaging with liturgy due to distractions or personal preferences, Dr. Fagerberg advises approaching liturgy as a sacred “tryst” with God, a meeting between divine and human lovers, where the focus should be on prayer rather than criticism.

They discuss the concept of liturgy as a transformative process that requires both God’s grace and human cooperation. Dr. Fagerberg contrasts this with an automatic, thoughtless participation, urging a more intentional and spiritually prepared engagement. He introduces the idea of liturgical asceticism, where one develops capacities for deeper liturgical participation over a lifetime, akin to preparing for the “eighth day” or the eschatological fulfillment in the resurrection.

This goes into the notion of liturgical time, distinguishing between “Kronos” (ordinary time) and “Kairos” (sacred time), and how liturgy allows worshippers to step into this sacred time, experiencing a reality larger than the temporal world. They discuss how different people, like theologians or laypersons, may apprehend liturgy differently, but all are invited to enter into its mystery with a heart prepared by spiritual practices, such as contemplation and asceticism.


Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

  • The definition of liturgy: Liturgy is the perichoresis of the Trinity kenotically extended to invite our synergistic ascent into deification.

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“This is why it’s important for worshiping on Sunday, the Lord’s Day for the Lord’s people in the Lord’s house at the Lord’s table. Sunday is this eighth day, the day of the resurrection. After six days of creation, got rested on the seventh, and when humanity fell into sin, God had to act again. So Sunday, the day of resurrection, is like one more day in the Book of Genesis being added as an appendix. And Taft says to anyone beginning the study of Sunday, “The initial impression is one of confusion.” Sunday is the first day, the day of creation, the day of light, the day of the new time. I think it’s just named the cosmic dimensions of Sunday, but it’s also the last day, the eighth day, the day beyond the days, the day of Jubilee, the day of the end time.

Now he has named the eschatological dimensions of Sunday. It’s the day of the resurrection, the day of the post-resurrection appearances and meals. Watch for that in the scripture readings eight days later on Sunday. It’s the day of the descent of the Spirit and the day of the ascension. These are the historical Jesus days.

And then, he gives finally the ecclesiological church meanings. The day of the assembly, the day of the Eucharist, the day of baptism, the day of ordinations. Until one asks, “Is there anything Sunday doesn’t mean?” And the answer of course, is no. For the early Church Sunday was indeed everything. The symbolic day, a sign of the time of the church between ascension and parousia, the time in which we are living now, it’s the day symbolic of all days for… And here’s the quote, which I stumbled on in our earlier conversation so I can slip it in here. “It’s a day symbolic of all days for the purpose of all Christian liturgy is to express in a ritual moment that which should be the basic stance of every moment of our lives.”

Once a year you celebrate a birthday in a ritual way, but that doesn’t mean you don’t love your kid for the other 364 days. Once a week, you enter into this Eucharistic uplift and twist with God, but that doesn’t mean you forget about him for the other days of the week. What you do on Sunday morning should be an expression of the basic stance of every day, of every hour, of every moment. Well, that seems to me like an ascetical struggle and a mystical joy.”


Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

  1. Understanding Liturgy’s Divine Nature: How does recognizing liturgy as the active work of God in the cosmos, rather than a mere human ritual, change your approach to participating in it?
  2. Entering Sacred Time: How can you become more aware of the transition from “Kronos” to “Kairos” during the liturgy, and what practices might help you prepare for this sacred encounter?
  3. Prayerful Participation: In what ways can you focus more on prayer and less on criticism during liturgical celebrations, especially when distractions arise?
  4. Liturgy as a Tryst with God: How does viewing liturgy as a meeting between divine and human lovers influence your relationship with God during the Mass?
  5. Developing Liturgical Capacities: What steps can you take to cultivate the spiritual capacities needed for a deeper, more transformative participation in the liturgy?
  6. Balancing Grace and Cooperation: How do you understand the balance between God’s grace and your own cooperation in the liturgical experience, and how can this understanding enhance your spiritual life?
  7. The Role of Asceticism in Liturgy: How might embracing a more ascetical approach to your spiritual life prepare you for a fuller participation in the liturgy and the life of the Church?

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page


David W. Fagerberg is Professor in the Department of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. He holds masters degrees from Luther Northwestern Seminary, St. John’s University (Collegeville), Yale Divinity School, and Yale University. His Ph.D. is from Yale University in liturgical theology.

Fagerberg’s work has explored how the Church’s lex credendi (law of belief) is founded upon the Church’s lex orandi (law of prayer). This was expressed in Theologia Prima (Hillenbrand Books, 2003). He has integrated into this the Eastern Orthodox understanding of asceticism by considering its role in preparing the liturgical person. This was treated in On Liturgical Asceticism (Catholic University Press, 2013). And these two themes come together in Consecrating the World: On Mundane Liturgical Theology (Angelico Press, 2016).

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:
Liturgical Theology Liturgical Mysticism Liturgical Theology Theological Theology

St. Bernard of Clairvaux, Pt. 2 – The Doctors of the Church: The Charism of Wisdom with Dr. Matthew Bunson – Discerning Hearts Podcast


St. Anthony of Padua Doctor of Church Matthew Bunson Podcast

St. Bernard of Clairvaux, Pt. 2 – The Doctors of the Church: The Charism of Wisdom with Dr. Matthew Bunson

  • Born: 1090, Fontaine-lès-Dijon, France
  • Died: August 20, 1153, Clairvaux Abbey, France
  • Books: Two-Fold Knowledge

Dr. Matthew Bunson and Kris McGregor discuss the life and influence of St. Bernard of Clairvaux, a 12th-century Cistercian monk and doctor of the Church. St. Bernard played a significant role in the Second Crusade, being called upon due to his reputation as a powerful preacher. Despite the Crusade’s failure, which was attributed to the incompetence and infighting of its leaders, Bernard was heavily criticized. He responded with humility, writing a formal apology to the Pope and stating that the failure was due to the sins of the crusaders rather than his call to arms. Bernard also took a strong stand against antisemitism, traveling through Germany to preach against attacks on Jewish communities, showcasing his commitment to justice and peace.

St. Bernard is also remembered for his deep mystical theology and devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. He sought to deepen the Church’s understanding of divine love and the importance of contemplative prayer. His influence extended to other notable figures like Hildegard of Bingen, whom he supported and encouraged. Bernard’s marian devotion is particularly highlighted through his emphasis on Mary as Mediatrix and Star of the Sea, roles that reflect her guiding and protective presence in the lives of the faithful. His teachings and humility made him a significant figure in the Church, earning him the title of Doctor of the Church in 1830.


Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

  1. St. Bernard’s Role in the Second Crusade: How does St. Bernard’s involvement in the Second Crusade challenge or deepen your understanding of Christian responsibility in times of conflict?
  2. Handling Criticism with Humility: In what ways can St. Bernard’s humble response to criticism inspire your own approach to facing unjust accusations?
  3. Anti-Semitism and Justice: How does St. Bernard’s efforts against antisemitism reflect the Church’s teachings on justice and the dignity of every human person?
  4. Theology and Mysticism: How can St. Bernard’s integration of contemplative prayer and theology influence your own spiritual practices and understanding of God?
  5. Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary: What does St. Bernard’s deep devotion to Mary as Mediatrix and Star of the Sea teach us about the role of Marian devotion in Christian life?
  6. Influence on Other Saints: How does St. Bernard’s guidance of Hildegard of Bingen and others exemplify the importance of spiritual mentorship in the Church?
  7. Legacy as a Doctor of the Church: In what ways does St. Bernard’s life and teachings continue to be relevant and instructive for the Church today?

From Vatican.va, an excerpt from the teachings of Pope Benedict XVI General Audience 2009

“I would now like to reflect on only two of the main aspects of Bernard’s rich doctrine: they concern Jesus Christ and Mary Most Holy, his Mother. His concern for the Christian’s intimate and vital participation in God’s love in Jesus Christ brings no new guidelines to the scientific status of theology. However, in a more decisive manner than ever, the Abbot of Clairvaux embodies the theologian, the contemplative and the mystic. Jesus alone Bernard insists in the face of the complex dialectical reasoning of his time Jesus alone is “honey in the mouth, song to the ear, jubilation in the heart (mel in ore, in aure melos, in corde iubilum)”. The title Doctor Mellifluus, attributed to Bernard by tradition, stems precisely from this; indeed, his praise of Jesus Christ “flowed like honey”. In the extenuating battles between Nominalists and Realists two philosophical currents of the time the Abbot of Clairvaux never tired of repeating that only one name counts, that of Jesus of Nazareth. “All food of the soul is dry”, he professed, “unless it is moistened with this oil; insipid, unless it is seasoned with this salt. What you write has no savour for me unless I have read Jesus in it” (In Canticum Sermones XV, 6: PL 183, 847). For Bernard, in fact, true knowledge of God consisted in a personal, profound experience of Jesus Christ and of his love. And, dear brothers and sisters, this is true for every Christian: faith is first and foremost a personal, intimate encounter with Jesus, it is having an experience of his closeness, his friendship and his love. It is in this way that we learn to know him ever better, to love him and to follow him more and more. May this happen to each one of us!

In another famous Sermon on the Sunday in the Octave of the Assumption the Holy Abbot described with passionate words Mary’s intimate participation in the redeeming sacrifice of her Son. “O Blessed Mother”, he exclaimed, “a sword has truly pierced your soul!… So deeply has the violence of pain pierced your soul, that we may rightly call you more than a martyr for in you participation in the passion of the Son by far surpasses in intensity the physical sufferings of martyrdom” (14: PL 183, 437-438). Bernard had no doubts: “per Mariam ad Iesum”, through Mary we are led to Jesus. He testifies clearly to Mary’s subordination to Jesus, in accordance with the foundation of traditional Mariology. Yet the text of the Sermone also documents the Virgin’s privileged place in the economy of salvation, subsequent to the Mother’s most particular participation (compassio) in the sacrifice of the Son. It is not for nothing that a century and a half after Bernard’s death, Dante Alighieri, in the last canticle of the Divine Comedy, was to put on the lips of the Doctor Mellifluus the sublime prayer to Mary: “Virgin Mother, daughter of your own Son, / humble and exalted more than any creature, / fixed term of the eternal counsel” (Paradise XXXIII, vv. 1 ff.).

These reflections, characteristic of a person in love with Jesus and Mary as was Bernard, are still a salutary stimulus not only to theologians but to all believers. Some claim to have solved the fundamental questions on God, on man and on the world with the power of reason alone. St Bernard, on the other hand, solidly founded on the Bible and on the Fathers of the Church, reminds us that without a profound faith in God, nourished by prayer and contemplation, by an intimate relationship with the Lord, our reflections on the divine mysteries risk becoming an empty intellectual exercise and losing their credibility. Theology refers us back to the “knowledge of the Saints”, to their intuition of the mysteries of the living God and to their wisdom, a gift of the Holy Spirit, which become a reference point for theological thought. Together with Bernard of Clairvaux, we too must recognize that man seeks God better and finds him more easily “in prayer than in discussion”. In the end, the truest figure of a theologian and of every evangelizer remains the Apostle John who laid his head on the Teacher’s breast.

I would like to conclude these reflections on St Bernard with the invocations to Mary that we read in one of his beautiful homilies. “In danger, in distress, in uncertainty”, he says, “think of Mary, call upon Mary. She never leaves your lips, she never departs from your heart; and so that you may obtain the help of her prayers, never forget the example of her life. If you follow her, you cannot falter; if you pray to her, you cannot despair; if you think of her, you cannot err. If she sustains you, you will not stumble; if she protects you, you have nothing to fear; if she guides you, you will never flag; if she is favourable to you, you will attain your goal…” (Hom. II super Missus est, 17: PL 183, 70-71).”


For more from Dr. Matthew Bunson, check out his Discerning Hearts page.

Dr. Matthew E. Bunson is a Register senior editor and a senior contributor to EWTN News. For the past 20 years, he has been active in the area of Catholic social communications and education, including writing, editing, and teaching on a variety of topics related to Church history, the papacy, the saints and Catholic culture. He is faculty chair at Catholic Distance University, a senior fellow of the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology, and the author or co-author of over 50 books including The Encyclopedia of Catholic History, The Pope Encyclopedia, We Have a Pope! Benedict XVI, The Saints Encyclopedia and best-selling biographies of St. Damien of Molokai and St. Kateri Tekakwitha.

St. Bernard of Clairvaux, Pt. 1 – The Doctors of the Church: The Charism of Wisdom with Dr. Matthew Bunson – Discerning Hearts Podcast


St. Anthony of Padua Doctor of Church Matthew Bunson Podcast

St. Bernard of Clairvaux, Pt. 1 – The Doctors of the Church: The Charism of Wisdom with Dr. Matthew Bunson

  • Born: 1090, Fontaine-lès-Dijon, France
  • Died: August 20, 1153, Clairvaux Abbey, France
  • Books: Two-Fold Knowledge

Dr. Matthew Bunsen and Kris McGregor discuss the life and influence of St. Bernard of Clairvaux. St. Bernard, a Doctor of the Church, is celebrated for his deep spirituality, theological brilliance, and reformative impact on monastic life. He was instrumental in building the Cistercian order and defending Church teachings. Bernard’s upbringing in a noble family provided him with a strong education and a profound devotion to Scripture and the Blessed Mother. After resisting worldly temptations, he entered the Benedictine order and helped restore the vigor of the original Rule of St. Benedict at the Abbey of Clairvaux. His leadership and dedication attracted many followers, and Clairvaux flourished under his guidance.

Bernard’s teachings, particularly on the Song of Songs, reflect his eloquent and elegant theology. Despite his desire for a contemplative life, he was frequently called upon by the Church to mediate conflicts, reform ecclesiastical practices, and support the papacy. His work, including his involvement in the Second Crusade, came at a great personal cost, but he remained committed to serving Christ and the Church.


Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

  1. The Significance of Spiritual Healing: How does St. Bernard’s title as a healer and miracle worker influence your understanding of spiritual healing in your own life?
  2. Embracing Austerity: What lessons can you learn from St. Bernard’s severe austerity and self-discipline in pursuing a life dedicated to Christ?
  3. The Role of Scripture: How can St. Bernard’s love for Scripture, particularly the Song of Songs, deepen your own relationship with the Bible?
  4. Responding to God’s Call: How does St. Bernard’s choice to join the Benedictine order inspire you to respond to God’s call in your life, even when it requires sacrifice?
  5. The Power of Prayer and Work: How can you incorporate the balance of prayer and work, as emphasized by the Rule of St. Benedict, into your daily routine?
  6. Humility in Service: What can you learn from St. Bernard’s humility and willingness to serve the Church, despite his personal preference for a contemplative life?
  7. Enduring Faithfulness: How does St. Bernard’s lifelong dedication to serving the Church challenge you to remain faithful to your commitments, regardless of personal cost?

From Vatican.va, an excerpt from the teachings of Pope Benedict XVI General Audience 2009

“Today I would like to talk about St Bernard of Clairvaux, called “the last of the Fathers” of the Church because once again in the 12th century he renewed and brought to the fore the important theology of the Fathers. We do not know in any detail about the years of his childhood; however, we know that he was born in 1090 in Fontaines, France, into a large and fairly well-to-do family. As a very young man he devoted himself to the study of the so-called liberal arts especially grammar, rhetoric and dialectics at the school of the canons of the Church of Saint-Vorles at Châtillon-sur-Seine; and the decision to enter religious life slowly matured within him. At the age of about 20, he entered Cîteaux, a new monastic foundation that was more flexible in comparison with the ancient and venerable monasteries of the period while at the same time stricter in the practice of the evangelical counsels. A few years later, in 1115, Bernard was sent by Stephen Harding, the third Abbot of Cîteaux, to found the monastery of Clairvaux. Here the young Abbot he was only 25 years old was able to define his conception of monastic life and set about putting it into practice. In looking at the discipline of other monasteries, Bernard firmly recalled the need for a sober and measured life, at table as in clothing and monastic buildings, and recommended the support and care of the poor. In the meantime the community of Clairvaux became ever more numerous and its foundations multiplied.

In those same years before 1130 Bernard started a prolific correspondence with many people of both important and modest social status. To the many Epistolae of this period must be added numerous Sermones, as well as Sententiae and Tractatus. Bernard’s great friendship with William, Abbot of Saint-Thierry, and with William of Champeaux, among the most important figures of the 12th century, also date to this period. As from 1130, Bernard began to concern himself with many serious matters of the Holy See and of the Church. For this reason he was obliged to leave his monastery ever more frequently and he sometimes also travelled outside France. He founded several women’s monasteries and was the protagonist of a lively correspondence with Peter the Venerable, Abbot of Cluny, of whom I spoke last Wednesday. In his polemical writings he targeted in particular Abelard, a great thinker who had conceived of a new approach to theology, introducing above all the dialectic and philosophical method in the constructi0n of theological thought. On another front Bernard combated the heresy of the Cathars, who despised matter and the human body and consequently despised the Creator. On the other hand, he felt it was his duty to defend the Jews, and condemned the ever more widespread outbursts of anti-Semitism. With regard to this aspect of his apostolic action, several decades later Rabbi Ephraim of Bonn addressed a vibrant tribute to Bernard. In the same period the holy Abbot wrote his most famous works such as the celebrated Sermons on the Song of Songs [In Canticum Sermones]. In the last years of his life he died in 1153 Bernard was obliged to curtail his journeys but did not entirely stop travelling. He made the most of this time to review definitively the whole collection of his Letters, Sermons and Treatises. Worthy of mention is a quite unusual book that he completed in this same period, in 1145, when Bernardo Pignatelli, a pupil of his, was elected Pope with the name of Eugene III. On this occasion, Bernard as his spiritual father, dedicated to his spiritual son the text De Consideratione [Five Books on Consideration] which contains teachings on how to be a good Pope. In this book, which is still appropriate reading for the Popes of all times, Bernard did not only suggest how to be a good Pope, but also expressed a profound vision of the Mystery of the Church and of the Mystery of Christ which is ultimately resolved in contemplation of the mystery of the Triune God. “The search for this God who is not yet sufficiently sought must be continued”, the holy Abbot wrote, “yet it may be easier to search for him and find him in prayer rather than in discussion. So let us end the book here, but not the search” (XIV, 32: PL 182, 808) and in journeying on towards God.”

For more visit Vatican.va


For more from Dr. Matthew Bunson, check out his Discerning Hearts page.

Dr. Matthew E. Bunson is a Register senior editor and a senior contributor to EWTN News. For the past 20 years, he has been active in the area of Catholic social communications and education, including writing, editing, and teaching on a variety of topics related to Church history, the papacy, the saints and Catholic culture. He is faculty chair at Catholic Distance University, a senior fellow of the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology, and the author or co-author of over 50 books including The Encyclopedia of Catholic History, The Pope Encyclopedia, We Have a Pope! Benedict XVI, The Saints Encyclopedia and best-selling biographies of St. Damien of Molokai and St. Kateri Tekakwitha.

St. Bernard and the 12 Steps to Humility and Pride – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles – Discerning Hearts Podcast

St. Bernard and the 12 Steps to Humility and Pride – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles

Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor have a discussion about St. Bernard of Clairvaux. They begin by discussing St. Bernard’s deep devotion to the Virgin Mary and his belief that Mary serves as the “neck” of the Mystical Body of Christ, through whom all grace from Christ is mediated to humanity.

Dr. Lilles outlines the historical context in which St. Bernard lived (1090-1153), highlighting his role in the Crusades, monastic reform, and his influence on other saints and mystics. Bernard’s central mission was to promote ongoing conversion to Christ, seeing it as the path to renewing the Church.

They go into St. Bernard’s teachings on humility and pride, as found in his writings. Dr. Lilles explains that for Bernard, truth is not just factual or feasible but relational and rooted in a deeper reality—a truth that is discovered through contemplation and faith. He contrasts this with modern views of truth, which often focus on what is feasible or factual, leading to a superficial understanding of reality.


Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

  1. Understanding Marian Devotion: How does St. Bernard of Clairvaux’s view of Mary as the “neck of the mystical body” deepen your understanding of Marian devotion and its role in leading us closer to Christ?
  2. Personal Conversion: In what areas of your life do you feel called to deeper conversion, following St. Bernard’s emphasis on ongoing transformation to strengthen the Church?
  3. Contemplation of Truth: Reflect on how you perceive truth—do you view it primarily as facts and feasibility, or are you open to the deeper, saving truth that St. Bernard speaks of, which comes through faith and contemplation?
  4. Facing Pain with Humility: How can embracing humility and recognizing your own sinfulness help you to confront personal pain and suffering without transferring it onto others, as discussed in the context of marriage and family?
  5. Pursuit of Salvation: How does acknowledging your need for salvation as a sinner change the way you approach your relationship with God and others, and how might it influence your journey toward spiritual growth?

THE TWELVE DEGREES OF HUMILITY

XII. A permanent attitude of bodily; and spiritual prostration.
XI. The speech of a monk should be short, sensible and in a subdued tone.
X. Abstinence from frequent and light laughter.
IX. Reticence, until asked for his opinion.
VIII. Observance of the general rule of the monastery.
VII. Belief in and declaration of one’s inferiority to others.
VI. Admission and acknowledgment of one’s own unworthiness and uselessness.
V. Confession of sins.
IV. Patient endurance of hardship and severity in a spirit of obedience.
III. Obedient submission to superiors.
II. Forbearance to press personal desire.
I. Constant abstinence from sin for fear of God.

 

THE TWELVE DEGREES OF PRIDE TAKEN DOWNWARDS

I. Curiosity, when a man allows His sight and other senses to stray after things which do not concern him.
II. An unbalanced state of mind, showing itself in talk unseasonably joyous and sad.
III. Silly merriment exhibited in too frequent laughter.
IV. Conceit expressed in much talking.
V. Eccentricity attaching exaggerated importance to one’s own conduct.
VI. Self-assertion holding oneself to be more pious than others.
VII. Presumption readiness to undertake anything.
VIII. Defense of wrong-doing.
IX. Unreal confession detected when severe penance is imposed.
X. Rebellion against the rules and the brethren.
XI. Liberty to sin.
XII. Habitual transgression.


For other episodes in the series visit the Discerning Hearts page for Dr. Anthony Lilles

Anthony Lilles, S.T.D., has served the Church and assisted in the formation of clergy and seminarians since 1994. Before coming to St. Patrick’s, he served at seminaries and houses of formation in the Archdiocese of Denver and the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. The son of a California farmer, married with young adult children, holds a B.A. in theology from the Franciscan University of Steubenville with both the ecclesiastical licentiate and doctorate in spiritual theology from the Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinas in Rome (the Angelicum). An expert in the writings of St. Elizabeth of the Trinity and the Carmelite Doctors of the Church, he co-founded the Avila Institute for Spiritual Formation and the High Calling Program for priestly vocations. He also founded the John Paul II Center for Contemplative Culture, which hosts symposiums, retreats, and conferences. In addition to his publications, he blogs at www.beginningtopray.com .

SISL2 – I Just Can’t Pray – Struggles in the Spiritual Life with Fr. Timothy Gallagher – Discerning Hearts Podcasts


I Just Can’t Pray – Struggles in the Spiritual Life with Fr. Timothy Gallagher O.M.V.

Fr. Timothy Gallagher and Kris McGregor discuss the spiritual struggles many face, particularly when prayer feels burdensome or difficult to maintain. Framed through the story of “John,” a man with a solid prayer life who experiences a period of spiritual dryness, struggling to maintain his usual practices of prayer, daily Mass, and spiritual reading; Fr. Gallagher tells us of the importance of recognizing the role of physical health in spiritual life.

John’s challenges are linked to his fatigue and poor self-care, especially his lack of sleep, which leads to diminished energy and motivation for prayer. Fr. Gallagher highlights that sometimes, what may seem like a spiritual problem is actually rooted in the body’s needs. He advises that taking care of the body—getting enough sleep, eating well, and managing stress—is crucial for maintaining a healthy spiritual life.

You can pick up a copy of the book here.


Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

  1. Awareness of Spiritual Dryness: Are you currently experiencing a lack of desire to pray or engage in spiritual practices?
  2. Impact of Physical Well-being on Prayer: How are your sleep patterns, diet, and physical energy levels affecting your spiritual life?
  3. Self-Care and Prayer Life: Are you taking proper care of your body as a way to support your relationship with God?
  4. Evaluating Spiritual Routine: Is your current prayer routine realistic and sustainable given the demands of your life?
  5. Seeking Guidance and Support: Do you have a spiritual director or someone you can talk to about your struggles in prayer?
  6. Adaptation to Life’s Circumstances: How does your prayer life adjust to changes in your health, responsibilities, or life circumstances?
  7. Perseverance in Spiritual Practices: Are you willing to begin again and persevere in prayer despite challenges and setbacks?

An excerpt from the book:

“Yes, the spiritual life is easier when we take wise care of the body. If you struggle in the spiritual life, ask first: How is my physical energy? Do I get enough sleep? Do I exercise sufficiently? Does my diet sustain my energy? If the answers are positive, you may presume that spiritual struggles, should you experience them, arise from a different cause. But it is wise to ask these questions before you presume this.

Sometimes, life simply makes demands on our energy. If John’s pace at work increases still more, if his wife’s illness grows more serious and long-lasting, if he himself faces physical issues, if the children’s needs increase, and the like, then his energy for prayer will be less. God never asks the impossible! John, or any one of us in similar circumstances, can only do our best to care for our energy. Such expenditures of energy, accepted out of love for our vocation — in this case, marriage and fatherhood — bring us closer to God, though our prayer may be more tired. Even in such situations, however, God asks us to care for the body as best we can. And this will bless our prayer.”

Gallagher O.M.V, Fr. Timothy ; Gallagher O.M.V, Fr. Timothy. Struggles in the Spiritual Life: Their Nature and Their Remedies (p. 17). Sophia Institute Press. Kindle Edition.


To find more episodes from this series, visit the Struggles in the Spiritual Life Podcast


From the book’s description: “Here is a powerful, life-changing book that will help you understand and conquer the struggles you face in your spiritual life. It’s a book for those who love the Lord and desire holiness yet often feel adrift or stagnant in their search for spiritual growth.

All of us encounter valleys on our journey with the Lord — those periods of spiritual desolation that are a painful yet unavoidable feature of our prayer life. Spiritual desolation is as complex as we are, so understanding what is happening and responding to it properly are critical to reaching the heights of holiness.

With warmth and understanding, Fr. Gallagher carefully identifies in this book the various forms of spiritual and nonspiritual desolation and supplies the remedy for each. You’ll learn how to discern whether your struggles derive from medical or psychological conditions or whether those struggles are spiritual and permitted by the Lord for reasons of growth. In each case, you’ll be given the remedy for the struggle. You’ll also learn the forms of spiritual dryness and of the Dark Night — and how to respond to them.

In chapter after chapter, Fr. Gallagher presents a particular struggle as experienced by fictional characters and then provides the advice he gives to those who come to him for spiritual direction about that struggle. You’ll gain confidence as you journey through desolation, and you’ll learn to reject the enemy’s ploys to infect you with a sense of hopelessness.


Did you know that Fr. Timothy Gallagher has 14 different podcast series on Discerning Hearts Catholic Podcasts?
Visit here to discover more!