sacrament of baptism Archives

PSM12 – The Two Liturgies: External and Internal – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 12 – The Two Liturgies: External and Internal – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg, Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss the concept of “two liturgies”—the external liturgy of the Eucharist and the internal, spiritual liturgy in the heart, where the Holy Spirit continually prays. The idea that true theology is not merely academic but lived out in the life of everyday believers, represented by figures like “Mrs. Murphy,” who embody practical, lived theology through their faith and actions.

The Christian journey towards deification, the process of becoming more like God, which is often met with humility or hesitation by believers. However, Christianity is not just a moral code but an invitation to participate in the divine life of the Trinity. Words and concepts in theology can become “worn smooth” over time, losing their impact, and theologians and artists play an important role in revitalizing these truths for contemporary believers.

Encountering Christ in both sacred and secular spaces, and the liturgical experience, transforms how one views the world. They reflect on how the cycles of liturgy and life, including moments of illness, aging, and everyday struggles, are all part of God’s work in shaping a person’s spiritual journey.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

The Noetic faculty in the heart (meaning perception of the heart)
Hesychia – stilleness, rest, quiet, silence

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“I’m looking for a quote, it’s from a contemporary Orthodox Metropolitan named Hierotheos, and he says, if the noetic faculty in the heart is operating, then we can come in contact with, what he calls, a second liturgy, “something happens that seems strange to most people, but is natural for those who consciously practice hesychia.” This is a silence, contemplative. “Although they are present at the Divine Eucharist and are aware through their senses and their reason of everything going on,” those are the first two faculties that I identified, “they’re listening at the same time to the noetic faculty in the heart where the Holy Spirit praises without ceasing. Lord Jesus Christ’s son of God have mercy on me.”

In other words, there are two liturgies. One is the external liturgy of the Divine Eucharist, where the bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ in the Holy Spirit. The other is the inner liturgy or Eucharist, where they experience uncreated worship and the spiritual priest of divine grace celebrates. There’s no break between the two liturgies. Both are accomplished with full awareness. The Holy Spirit changes the bread and wine into Christ’s body and blood, and the same Holy Spirit activates noetic prayer on the altar of the heart.

Well, by talking about aestheticism and mysticism, my purpose has been to try to make us think about… That sounds like I just denied everything I’ve been saying. I’m trying to make us think about something, make us think about this synergy going on, and I am trying to make us think about it. I’m writing books about Mrs. Murphy. I don’t want her to read them, but I write about Mrs. Murphy for my colleagues. So that my colleagues, I made a sweeping gesture to mean the academic world, so that they don’t look down their noses at Mrs. Murphy. My lesson from Aidan Kavanagh and the thesis is that Mrs. Murphy is a true theologian and I’m making an apologetic for her.”

Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

Understanding the Two Liturgies: How do the external and internal liturgies influence your relationship with God?
Recognizing Your Inner Mrs. Murphy: In what ways do you embody practical theology in your everyday life?
Embracing Deification: How open are you to the idea of ascending into deification, and what steps can you take toward it?
Reclaiming Lost Words: Which spiritual or theological terms have lost their impact on you, and how can you rediscover their depth?
Encountering Christ in the World: Where do you most frequently encounter Christ in your daily life, and how do you respond?
Embracing the Spiritual Journey: How do you perceive the cyclical nature of spiritual growth, and where are you in your journey?
Contemplating Life’s Purpose: Reflect on the entirety of your life as a spiritual offering to God—how are you preparing for your final encounter with Him?

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

David W. Fagerberg is Professor in the Department of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. He holds masters degrees from Luther Northwestern Seminary, St. John’s University (Collegeville), Yale Divinity School, and Yale University. His Ph.D. is from Yale University in liturgical theology.

Fagerberg’s work has explored how the Church’s lex credendi (law of belief) is founded upon the Church’s lex orandi (law of prayer). This was expressed in Theologia Prima (Hillenbrand Books, 2003). He has integrated into this the Eastern Orthodox understanding of asceticism by considering its role in preparing the liturgical person. This was treated in On Liturgical Asceticism (Catholic University Press, 2013). And these two themes come together in Consecrating the World: On Mundane Liturgical Theology (Angelico Press, 2016).

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM11 – Ascetical Struggle and a Mystical Joy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 11 – Ascetical Struggle and a Mystical Joy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg, Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor explore a dense definition of liturgy as “the resis of the Trinity canonically extended to invite our synergistic ascent into deification”. Dr. Fagerberg explains that liturgy is not just a human ritual but the active work of God in the cosmos, drawing participants into the divine life. Touching on various aspects of liturgical participation, including the struggle many people feel in engaging with liturgy due to distractions or personal preferences, Dr. Fagerberg advises approaching liturgy as a sacred “tryst” with God, a meeting between divine and human lovers, where the focus should be on prayer rather than criticism.

They discuss the concept of liturgy as a transformative process that requires both God’s grace and human cooperation. Dr. Fagerberg contrasts this with an automatic, thoughtless participation, urging a more intentional and spiritually prepared engagement. He introduces the idea of liturgical asceticism, where one develops capacities for deeper liturgical participation over a lifetime, akin to preparing for the “eighth day” or the eschatological fulfillment in the resurrection.

This goes into the notion of liturgical time, distinguishing between “Kronos” (ordinary time) and “Kairos” (sacred time), and how liturgy allows worshippers to step into this sacred time, experiencing a reality larger than the temporal world. They discuss how different people, like theologians or laypersons, may apprehend liturgy differently, but all are invited to enter into its mystery with a heart prepared by spiritual practices, such as contemplation and asceticism.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

The definition of liturgy: Liturgy is the perichoresis of the Trinity kenotically extended to invite our synergistic ascent into deification.

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“This is why it’s important for worshiping on Sunday, the Lord’s Day for the Lord’s people in the Lord’s house at the Lord’s table. Sunday is this eighth day, the day of the resurrection. After six days of creation, got rested on the seventh, and when humanity fell into sin, God had to act again. So Sunday, the day of resurrection, is like one more day in the Book of Genesis being added as an appendix. And Taft says to anyone beginning the study of Sunday, “The initial impression is one of confusion.” Sunday is the first day, the day of creation, the day of light, the day of the new time. I think it’s just named the cosmic dimensions of Sunday, but it’s also the last day, the eighth day, the day beyond the days, the day of Jubilee, the day of the end time.

Now he has named the eschatological dimensions of Sunday. It’s the day of the resurrection, the day of the post-resurrection appearances and meals. Watch for that in the scripture readings eight days later on Sunday. It’s the day of the descent of the Spirit and the day of the ascension. These are the historical Jesus days.

And then, he gives finally the ecclesiological church meanings. The day of the assembly, the day of the Eucharist, the day of baptism, the day of ordinations. Until one asks, “Is there anything Sunday doesn’t mean?” And the answer of course, is no. For the early Church Sunday was indeed everything. The symbolic day, a sign of the time of the church between ascension and parousia, the time in which we are living now, it’s the day symbolic of all days for… And here’s the quote, which I stumbled on in our earlier conversation so I can slip it in here. “It’s a day symbolic of all days for the purpose of all Christian liturgy is to express in a ritual moment that which should be the basic stance of every moment of our lives.”

Once a year you celebrate a birthday in a ritual way, but that doesn’t mean you don’t love your kid for the other 364 days. Once a week, you enter into this Eucharistic uplift and twist with God, but that doesn’t mean you forget about him for the other days of the week. What you do on Sunday morning should be an expression of the basic stance of every day, of every hour, of every moment. Well, that seems to me like an ascetical struggle and a mystical joy.”

Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

Understanding Liturgy’s Divine Nature: How does recognizing liturgy as the active work of God in the cosmos, rather than a mere human ritual, change your approach to participating in it?
Entering Sacred Time: How can you become more aware of the transition from “Kronos” to “Kairos” during the liturgy, and what practices might help you prepare for this sacred encounter?
Prayerful Participation: In what ways can you focus more on prayer and less on criticism during liturgical celebrations, especially when distractions arise?
Liturgy as a Tryst with God: How does viewing liturgy as a meeting between divine and human lovers influence your relationship with God during the Mass?
Developing Liturgical Capacities: What steps can you take to cultivate the spiritual capacities needed for a deeper, more transformative participation in the liturgy?
Balancing Grace and Cooperation: How do you understand the balance between God’s grace and your own cooperation in the liturgical experience, and how can this understanding enhance your spiritual life?
The Role of Asceticism in Liturgy: How might embracing a more ascetical approach to your spiritual life prepare you for a fuller participation in the liturgy and the life of the Church?

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM10 – The Inward then Outward, Upward then Downward Movement of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 10 – The Inward then Outward, Upward then Downward Movement of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss how marriage, as a sacrament, symbolizes the union between Christ and the Church, reflecting God’s original plan before the Fall. Discussing asceticism in the context of both Eden and our current spiritual practices; and how living in an upright manner aligns with God’s original justice, they delve into the concept of liturgy as a two-way movement, where the faithful ascend into the heavenly realms, and the Holy Spirit descends upon the assembly.

The mystery and beauty of sacraments, particularly the Eucharist and reconciliation, Dr. Fagerberg uses vivid metaphors to illustrate how sacraments reconnect believers with God, especially after sin has disrupted their relationship.

Mysticism is discussed as an integral part of Christian life, not a separate path but a deeper way of walking the path laid by Christ. With repetition in spiritual practices, it fosters a deep and steady communion with God, preparing the soul for the ultimate mystical union in heaven.

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“This is from my theological diary once more. There are two movements in the liturgy and the Greek language identified them as anabatic and katabatic. Basis means to go. Anabatic is to go up. Katabatic is to go down. The anabatic movement in liturgy is our ascent into the heavenly realms. Lift up your hearts. The katabatic is the spirit’s descent upon the assembly and the sacrifice.

Oh, the dictionary includes a meteorological definition for Anabasis as well. It says pertaining to an uphill wind produced by the effects of local heating. No wait. That’s a Pentecostal definition. The dictionary also gives a spatial metaphor. Anabasis, it says, is a march from the coast to the interior, where in silence one will find the Holy Spirit waiting. While Catabasis is a march from the interior of a country to the coast, where in need one will find the world waiting.

Every liturgy is a two-way march inward then outward, or upward then downward. But here’s the paragraph that made me think of it now and this is just especially for you in your tornado. The prefix acro means aloft. The Holy Spirit restores Adam and Eve’s wings making us liturgical acrobats, acrobasis, tumbling twirling, doing barrel rolls with the angels above the altar. Liturgical aestheticism lightens one’s gravity and increases the measure of our liturgical capacity.

So I’ll open a summer camp for liturgical acrobats and the people who have a thin definition will think that I’m actually doing something like a clown liturgy, but will actually start with prayer fasting and alms giving. Try to overcome the passions, learn how to overcome the passions so that we could become lofty liturgists twirling aloft. Acrobasis. I told you I don’t know other languages. I mean, I’m just bad at it. I passed my language exams, but I do like single words and they just turn like a ruby. They don’t have all those other words cluttering up the sentence, those single words are just gems to me.”

Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

The Sacramental Union in Marriage: How does your marriage (or relationships) reflect the union between Christ and the Church?
Original Justice and Asceticism: In what ways can you practice asceticism in your life to align more closely with God’s original plan for humanity?
Liturgy as Spiritual Ascent: How can you more consciously participate in the liturgical ascent and descent during Mass to deepen your connection with God?
Reconciliation and Renewal: Do you view the Sacrament of Reconciliation as a “kickstart” for your spiritual life, and how can it help restore your relationship with God?
The Role of Mysticism: How do you understand mysticism within your faith journey, and how can you begin to cultivate a mystical life grounded in the sacraments?
The Power of Repetition: What spiritual practices in your life need more consistent repetition to build a deeper and more stable relationship with God?
Communion with God in Everyday Life: How can you foster a continuous, habitual communion with God, even in the ordinary moments of daily life?

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM9 – The Liturgical Bridge to Mystery – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 9 – The Liturgical Bridge to Mystery – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss the sacred nature of liturgical spaces and the significance of liturgical practices. The physical church and its liturgical actions are consecrated, reflecting the life of the Trinity. Fagerberg references Abraham Heschel’s view on the sanctification of time, noting that spiritual living involves facing sacred moments rather than accumulating information.

Asceticism, involving self-discipline and purification of passions, is necessary for mystical union with God. Fagerberg describes this journey using stages: the active life (practical struggle against passions), the contemplative life (understanding the cosmos through divine revelation), and union with God (theology as participation in divine life).

The conversation also touches on the interconnectedness of these stages and how they reflect the order and harmony intended by God. Dr. Fagerberg uses metaphors and references to Eastern Christian thought to illustrate the spiritual transformation required for true liturgical participation and highlights the sacramental nature of marriage as a visible sign of Christ’s relationship with the Church and how liturgical worship restores our original capacity for holy sacrifice, leading us beyond the Edenic state into deeper union with God.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

Praktike (purgation)
Physike (illumination)
Theologia (union with God)

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“What’s the right relationship between our asceticism and liturgical mysticism?

I thought I would write a book on liturgical acestism and then write a book on liturgical mysticism, so I could find out, but I finished them both, and I’m not sure that I’m done with it yet. I liked the key you gave in our earlier conversation that I don’t need to try to come up with a liturgical bridge to asceticism. And then another liturgical bridge to mysticism, liturgy is the bridge between those two. So if I walk the bridge of liturgy, I’ll find on the east end and the west end, the north end and the south end of this bridge, both of them, I know that mysticism awaits us at the end of asceticism, as I understood it from the tradition. And in that book (On Liturgical Ascetism), I primarily dealt with Eastern and Orthodox material. I understand mysticism to be at the end of it because when it goes through these stages of praktike, physike, and theologia, in order to arrive theologia which union with God. Well, what better definition of mysticism do I need? Um, mysticism must surely have some requirements of us in efforts of us. Well, yeah. Mysticism assumes asceticism, asceticism assumes mysticism, but if the emphasis is on a different syllable, it seems like one of them starts with the efforts required. With askesis, training, discipline effort we arrive at the mystery and the other starts with the mystery, but acknowledges that the purgation and illumination will precede this unification. I think they’re related. And I’ve got a number of metaphors for the relationship, but I don’t think enough of them yet. And they’re not entirely happy.”

Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

Significance of Sacred Spaces: How do the anointing and consecration of our churches enhance our understanding and appreciation of the Trinity’s presence in our worship spaces?
Sanctification of Time: Reflect on how we can prioritize facing sacred moments over accumulating information in our daily spiritual practices.
Relationship Between Asceticism and Mysticism: In what ways can practicing asceticism in our lives lead us towards a deeper mystical union with God?
Stages of Spiritual Life: How can we recognize and nurture the interconnected stages of active life, contemplative life, and union with God in our personal spiritual journey?
Role of Passions and Faculties: Consider how the proper ordering of our intellective, concupiscible, and irascible faculties can lead to a more harmonious and holy life.
Sacramental Nature of Marriage: How does understanding marriage as a sacrament reflecting Christ’s relationship with the Church influence our view of marital union and family life?
Restoration Through Liturgy: In what ways does participating in the liturgy restore our original capacity for holy sacrifice and deepen our relationship with God?

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM8 – The Life of Mystagogy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 8 – The Life of Mystagogy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor explore the profound connections between liturgy, sacrifice, and the layperson’s role in the Catholic Church. Liturgy begins with personal preparation and participation. The sacrifice in the liturgical context is about offering oneself to God rather than merely giving something up. They highlight the significant role of the laity, who possess an “interior priesthood” that complements the ordained priesthood, and caution against practices that blur the distinct roles of clergy and laity, which can undermine the true value of lay participation.

In understanding one’s baptismal identity for full liturgical participation, it calls for better catechesis and mystagogical formation. Sacred and profane are complementary aspects of God’s world, with sacred moments and places offering a perspective that helps believers recognize the holiness in everyday life. True evangelization involves deepening the baptized Christians’ understanding and living out of their faith, fostering continuous personal transformation. The liturgical rhythm provides structure and coherence to life, enabling believers to integrate the sacred with the profane meaningfully.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

What is it to live the liturgy?
What occurs at our baptism?
What is our role true role in the liturgical celebration?
What is the nature of “mystagogy?”

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“Liturgy is doing the world the way it was meant to be done, but I can’t do it the way it was meant to be done unless I know what I am supposed to be doing. And unless I know what God wants me to be doing, and unless I know what God intends for the world. So I have to spend some time with the blueprint drawer, with the architect, with the designer. I don’t know how this family should operate, or this marriage should operate, or this justice in society should operate unless they spend some time with the source of love and the source of justice and the source of life. So we go into the sacred in order to inhale, so that we can conduct our sacramental, ascetical, and mystical life. I live this life seven days in the world before Icome into the sacred on the eighth day, then I take a step up into heaven, so that I can see heaven around me.”

Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

Understanding Perichoresis: How does the concept of perichoresis deepen your understanding of the Trinity and its relationship within itself?
Embracing Kenosis: In what ways can you practice kenosis, or self-emptying, in your own life to better follow Christ’s example?
Participating in Synergy: How can you better cooperate with God’s grace in your daily activities, seeing it as a divine dance where God leads?
Liturgy as Transformation: How does viewing liturgy as a transformative encounter rather than just a ritual change your approach to worship?
Universal Call to Holiness: Reflect on your vocation as a baptized Christian. How can you live out your call to holiness in your current state of life?
Offering Spiritual Sacrifice: What aspects of your daily life can be offered as a spiritual sacrifice to God?
Priesthood of All Believers: How do you understand your role in the priesthood of all believers, and how can you actively participate in this communal priesthood?
Continuous Conversion: In what ways can you embrace a continual process of conversion to deepen your union with God through the liturgy and sacraments?

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM7 – The Definition of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 7 – The Definition of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss the profound theological concepts underlying the definition of liturgy. Dr. Fagerberg begins by explaining the term “perichoresis,” which refers to the mutual indwelling and dynamic relationship within the Trinity. He ties this concept to the idea of “kenosis,” the self-emptying nature of Christ in the Incarnation, and extends it to the act of creation. Dr. Fagerberg elaborates on how these divine interactions exemplify the overflowing love of God, which reaches out to humanity and invites participation in the divine life.

Dr. Fagerberg introduces “synergy,” the cooperation between God’s grace and human response and likening this to a divine dance where God leads, and humans follow, aiming towards deification or becoming one with God. He emphasizes that liturgy is the communal participation in this divine life, where human beings are called to cooperate with God’s will. This cooperation transforms them and draws them into deeper communion with God. Liturgy is not just a ritual but a transformative encounter that involves the entire person in a mystical union with the Trinity.

The universal call to holiness is the idea that every baptized person has a vocation, not just those in ordained ministry. This vocation involves offering one’s life as a spiritual sacrifice and participating in the priesthood of all believers.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

Liturgy is the perichoresis of the Trinity kenotically extended to invite our synergistic ascent into deification.

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“So conversion metanoia means to take on a new mind, to receive a new mind. Well, what could you do with a new mind? I might see things differently. I might change my values. They might be turned upside down from selfish values to kingdom values. Conversion is one step, but it’s a lifelong step. The entire life is a extended baptismal conversion. So one baptism doesn’t end something. It starts something the same way that a wedding starts a marriage. It’s it’s not the end of the marriage. It’s the beginning of the marriage. And baptism is the start of what, what do you want to call? The thing that baptism is the start of, Christianity, spirituality, your liturgical life, your spiritual warfare, your joys in the kingdom. It’s the beginning.”

Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

Understanding Perichoresis: How does the concept of perichoresis deepen your understanding of the Trinity and its relationship within itself?
Embracing Kenosis: In what ways can you practice kenosis, or self-emptying, in your own life to better follow Christ’s example?
Participating in Synergy: How can you better cooperate with God’s grace in your daily activities, seeing it as a divine dance where God leads?
Liturgy as Transformation: How does viewing liturgy as a transformative encounter rather than just a ritual change your approach to worship?
Universal Call to Holiness: Reflect on your vocation as a baptized Christian. How can you live out your call to holiness in your current state of life?
Offering Spiritual Sacrifice: What aspects of your daily life can be offered as a spiritual sacrifice to God?
Priesthood of All Believers: How do you understand your role in the priesthood of all believers, and how can you actively participate in this communal priesthood?
Continuous Conversion: In what ways can you embrace a continual process of conversion to deepen your union with God through the liturgy and sacraments?

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM6 – The Synergy of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 6 – The Synergy of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor explore the significance of liturgy in the life of the church and its members. Liturgy should be central to Christian life, rather than overshadowed by other church activities. They cover the formative power of ritual and the necessity of active participation in liturgical practices.

Dr. Fagerberg draws an analogy to illustrate the complexity of theology, describing the difficulty of maintaining a balanced focus on both God and church activities. Liturgical participation, not merely as observers but as active participants, is akin to engaging in a dance with God where He leads, and we follow.

Liturgy is not just a series of actions but a profound encounter with God’s presence, requiring a conscious response from the faithful. This response is characterized by synergy, where God’s grace and human faith work together harmoniously. The conversation also touches on the Catholic belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, emphasizing the incarnational nature of Catholic worship.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

The difference between being involved with ministry and being consciously present to the mystery of God.
The nature of synergy in regards to liturgy, and in particular the celebration of the mass.

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“God plans to be fully, actively, and consciously present in liturgy. That’s His presence from above. What should I do in response? Maybe I should be full, active, conscious response to his presence. That would be a nice filling out of the idea of participation because participation doesn’t mean activity that I generate. Participation is my response to his presence. He’s full, active, consciously present. I’m full, actively, consciously responding.

The Greek word for that is synergy, S Y N E R G Y. And syn means “together”,enérgeia means an energy or an activity at work. Here are two examples. One of them is synergy. One of them is not synergy. Mom is coming. The apartment is a mess. You clean up that room. I’ll clean up this room. Together, they cleaned up the apartment. The second, example is in order to have fire, you must have matter, spark, and oxygen. They have to operate together. The first example is just two people doing an activity at the same time. In the second example, the one makes possible the other makes it occur. Well, synergy is that second example. It’s co operatio (co-operate), synergy. God’s graces and we faith. God energizes and we synergize. He takes the lead in the ballroom dancing and we follow. We co-operate. Well, that leads me to suppose that it’s not a matter of laity co-operating with the clergy. Rather laity and clergy should co-operate the liturgy which is occurring at this moment. And in our liturgy, the human liturgy, the liturgy of the Church, it is a cooperation with the full, active and conscious presence of God. He makes himself present. We make this response.”

Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

Prioritizing Liturgy in Church Activities: How can we ensure that our involvement in church activities does not overshadow the central importance of the liturgy?
Active Participation in Mass: In what ways can we move from being passive observers to active participants during the Mass?
Balancing Church Involvement and Worship: How do we find the balance between being active in church life and maintaining a focus on the worship of God?
Understanding Liturgical Synergy: How can we better understand and embrace the concept of synergy in our liturgical participation?
Encountering God in the Liturgy: How do we experience and respond to God’s presence during the liturgy, both in the Eucharist and in the assembly of believers?
Liturgy as a Daily Practice: How can the principles and actions of the liturgy influence and be reflected in our daily lives?
Responsibility and Obligation in Worship: What are our responsibilities and obligations in worship, and how can we fulfill them more fully?
Incarnational Worship: How does the incarnational nature of Catholic worship affect our understanding and practice of the liturgy?

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM5 – The Marian Mystery and the Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 5 – The Marian Mystery and the Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor delve into the Blessed Virgin Mary’s role within Liturgy. Kris shares her personal relationship with Mary, describing her as a tender and guiding mother figure, contrasting this with her relationship with God the Father, which she feels lacks the same emotional warmth but is deeper. They explore C.S. Lewis’s reassurance that love for imagined figures, like Aslan, does not compete with love for Jesus, highlighting how God works through our imaginations. This leads to a discussion on the different types of veneration in Catholicism: dulia for saints, hyperdulia for Mary, and latria for God alone, with Mary exemplifying the church’s path to glorifying God through liturgy.

They also discuss Marian apparitions, noting their role in leading the faithful to the Eucharist and liturgy, with McGregor emphasizing the Eucharist’s centrality. Pope Paul VI’s “Marialis Cultus” is referenced, highlighting Mary as a model for Christians in the liturgy, exemplifying the attentive Virgin, the Virgin in prayer, the Virgin Mother, and the Virgin presenting offerings. Fagerberg stresses that Mary is not a replacement for Christ but a masterpiece of grace, leading the church to glorify God.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

What is the relationship between Mary and the liturgy of the Church?
What is Liturgical Dogma?
Why is dogma important?
What is the authentic nature of “full and active participation”?

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“There’s a relationship between Mary and the liturgy. She’s the model of the spiritual attitude with which the church celebrates and lives. The divine mysteries, any names for Mary is the attentive Virgin. She’s the Virgin in prayer. She’s the Virgin Mother and the Virgin presenting offerings. What do we do in liturgy? This is what Paul VI goes through. In this document, we seek to be attentive, to offer a prayer, to be the maternal church that gathers the world under the wings and heals its sufferings and presents offerings. Mary is a model of a spiritual attitude, which every Christian should have when he or she celebrates and lives the divine mysteries. So she’s not a replacement of the mystery. She’s the model for how we live and express those mysteries.

More taken from the discussion:

The words which are vehicles for Spirit are revelatory in Scripture, but they’re dogmatic in other forms. And dogmas are words, and you have to use the right words. The doctor is writing the prescription for you. He can’t prescribe arsenic instead of aspirin, it matters which words he writes down on the pad. It matters what terms we use in our dogma. And that’s why the Church argues over these things. You have to have the wording just right. As Chesterton has said, the Church is a lion tamer, and she’s running with tigers and lions and dragons. And everything has to be just right in order to keep the balance. One wrong slip of words, Chesterton finishes, and all the stained glass would be broken and all the Christmas trees destroyed. Yeah. As it happened, when we goofed up our understanding of the sacramentality of the church, broke windows, and whitewashed the art, you have to be very careful in how you prescribe it.

We prefer to have a kind of loosey-goosey why can’t we just say, be healthy? Why do we have to have doctors and med school and big medical manuals? Well, because it matters how strong a dose you prescribe. You have to argue about this. And sometimes the arguments have to go on for 300 years before we pinned down our correct definition of transubstantiation in order to make sense out of reality and symbol…John Carbone, again in his book, Wellspring of Worship writes The Virgin Mary is the Church as it dawns in a single person. Let’s see who knew that? Oh yeah. Second Vatican Council Lumen Gentium, the document on the Church. How should we end this with a chapter on Mary? Mary is the Church as it dawns in a single person.”

Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

Personal Relationship with Mary: How can you deepen your personal relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary and see her as a tender and guiding mother figure?
Understanding Different Types of Veneration: How does understanding the distinctions between dulia, hyperdulia, and latria help you in your spiritual practice?
Role of Marian Apparitions: In what ways do Marian apparitions lead you closer to the Eucharist and the liturgy?
Eucharistic Centrality: How can you ensure the Eucharist remains the central focus of your faith and spiritual practice?
Imagination in Faith: How does God work through your imagination to deepen your faith and love for Him?
Marian Model in Liturgy: How can you emulate Mary as a model in your liturgical practice, particularly in her roles as the attentive Virgin, the Virgin in prayer, the Virgin Mother, and the Virgin presenting offerings?
Mary and Grace: How does viewing Mary as a masterpiece of grace help you in your own journey to glorify God?

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM4 – The Form of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 4 – The Form of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor explore the theme of holiness through the lives of prominent Catholic figures such as Mother Teresa, Dorothy Day, Fulton Sheen, and John Paul II. These individuals, despite their different paths and actions, shared a common foundation in their daily practice of adoration and sacramental life: the importance of receiving spiritual nourishment to give to others.

Dr. Fagerberg discusses the necessity of balancing active service with liturgical life, comparing it to the need to inhale before exhaling. This balance ensures that service is rooted in a communion with Christ rather than being mere social work. The conversation delves into the concept of genuine worship, emphasizing that true worship should be directed towards God, not the actions or movements themselves.

The dangers of ego in spirituality, noting that true prayer involves listening to Christ rather than merely talking about oneself. The significance of the Psalms in Christian prayer is highlighted, as they represent a dialogue between God and Christ. The importance of liturgy in shaping spiritual life, not as an expression of personal feelings, but as a way to conform to God’s will. Liturgy is described as a formative process that aligns believers with the divine order, likened to a mask that eventually shapes the wearer’s face to fit it.

Dr. Fagerberg touches on the distinction between dulia (reverence to saints and holy places) and latria (worship due to God alone), cautioning against idolatry. The podcast concludes with reflections on the transformative power of liturgy in leading to deification, allowing believers to see and interact with the world through the light of divine grace.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

The experience of lukewarm prayer.
The nature of humility and worship.
What is the form of liturgy?
What is Dulia and Latria?
Liturgy comes from whom we are worshipping.

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“The odd thing is that we can sometimes be proud of our humility and our self knowledge which makes us more vainglorious I have a couple of lines that I’m proud of having written, and this is one of them. So long as there is this old Adam ego humility will feel like humiliation. And if you wake up in the morning with a Christian smile and say, dear God, I’d like to become more humble today. He’ll accommodate you. There will be humiliations. Oh, I didn’t mean to say that. Oh, I meant to hold my tongue. Oh, I’m not even, I’m going to fact like it’s humiliating. Yes. That’s what it is to carry these crosses to be nailed with Jesus to the cross is for you to die to yourself, to your seam. This isn’t ego like healthy your strength. This is like me for as myself second, or there’s anything left. I’ll take it. This is a, God is my servant. Rather than me being his servant.”

More taken from the discussion:

“It’s not as if God is changing so rapidly, that new material has to be inserted into the liturgy. Just to keep up with him. If the liturgy were totally or even significantly culturally dependent, then we could say that it would need continual revision for, with a changing material. The form would have to be different too, but liturgy is not an expression of how people see things. Rather it proposes instead how God sees all people.”

And still more:

“They are Dulia and Latria. Dulia means a homage or reverence or respect you pay dulia to distinguished persons, or even places. The Archangel Gabriel gets dulia. Saint Augustin gets dulia. Mother Theresa gets dulia. The grotto at Notre Dame gets dulia. Lartia is different from dulia. And I don’t know if I can give it a single English word. So instead I’ll give it a description. Latria is what we give God. And only God, because he is God, you can give dulia to the emperor, but you must give latria to God. And you ought not to give latria to the emperor because that would be giving latria to something other than God, to an image of God, to something lesser than God, which in Greek was the word eídolo. And that’s where the word idolatry comes from idos lateria is giving latria to something other than God.”

Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

The Role of Adoration in Daily Life: How can we integrate daily adoration into our routine to ensure that our actions are inspired and sustained by our relationship with Christ?
Balancing Service and Worship: In what ways can we ensure that our charitable actions are rooted in our communion with Christ rather than mere social work?
Self-Knowledge and Humility: How can we cultivate true humility and self-knowledge in our spiritual journey, avoiding the trap of becoming proud of our humility?
Understanding Worship and Worth-ship: What does it mean to truly worship God and give Him worth-ship in our daily lives?
The Importance of Liturgy: How does participating in liturgy shape our understanding of God and our relationship with Him?
Conforming to Christ’s Liturgy: In what ways can our worship and daily life reflect Christ’s liturgy before the Father?
Idolatry and True Worship: How can we avoid idolatry by ensuring that our ultimate concern and worship are directed solely to God?
Formative Power of Liturgy: How can we allow the liturgy to form us into the people God calls us to be?
Seeing the World with New Eyes: How does our participation in the liturgy help us to see the world through the eyes of faith and respond accordingly?
Prioritizing Greater Goods: How can we discern and prioritize greater goods in our life, continually moving closer to God’s ultimate good?

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM3 – Living Mystery in the Mundane – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 3 – Living Mystery in the Mundane – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss the universal call to holiness as articulated by Vatican II, emphasizing that every Christian is a mystic, evangelist, and apostle in their own right. They explore the lay apostolate’s role in manifesting the mystery of Christ through daily life, even in seemingly mundane tasks. Dr. Fagerberg highlights the concept of “Consecrating the World,” which involves integrating liturgy, theology, asceticism, and mysticism into everyday experiences, suggesting that mundane activities are opportunities for liturgical acts and Eucharistic sacrifices.

The importance of seeing the divine in the ordinary, using examples like standing near the altar during Mass as Mary stood near the cross, and how daily interactions and struggles, can be acts of spiritual warfare and service. The Eucharist and the sacramental life nourish and capacitate Christians for this mission, drawing on the mystical participation in the Paschal mystery and the continuous cycle of receiving and giving in spiritual life.

Dr. Fagerberg also reflects on the deeper meaning of liturgy and its connection to salvation history, suggesting that liturgy is not just ceremonial but is deeply rooted in God’s cosmic plan for redemption and sanctification. He emphasizes that true spirituality has a disciplined, ascetic dimension, contrasting it with the often shapeless notion of spirituality in contemporary culture.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

What is a “mundane” liturgical theology?
The call to holiness is here and now.
How the Church serves a Mother.
Why liturgy? Why worship? Why are we called?

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“So where are you going to practice your asceticism, not sitting in your office, reading a book and thinking lofty thoughts about the human race, but when that colleague bugs me in this office meeting, when one more time I have to admit that Elizabeth is right, but I’m too stubborn to do so overcoming those passions of pride and vainglory and ego and avarice and gluttony and, and envy and backbiting… tiny little actions, day by day, movement by movement. St. John Chrysostom has a terrific homily on Ephesians which he says that the poor that you meet in the city, in the public square, the poor are another altar on which you can make your Eucharistic sacrifice. You’re so happy to have been in the church where there’s this stone altar that was, honored and revered because it bore upon it, the body and blood of Christ. Well, here is Christ in the person of the poor. Look, how generous God is to you. He’s given you a thousand chances a day to make another liturgical act, another Eucharistic sacrifice. And just when I think I’ve satisfied my quarter, he sends another one to me, what a good and generous God we have.”

More taken from the discussion:

“Chesterton was asked why he became a Catholic. And his answer was because we’re sinners. And because we have a God who loves us passionately. And so this is what God has done in order to rectify the problem. I think God always had intended to bring us home to him, to let us join the life of God, to enter the perichoresis of the Trinity. It’s not like that was plan A and then after the fall in the garden of Eden, he moved on to plan B redemption is a completion of creation. Creation was the beginning of redemption. So his goal is for our sanctification, our adoption, our deification, and God gets the ball rolling with the salvation history.”

Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

Universal Call to Holiness: How do you understand your role as a mystic, evangelist, and apostle in your daily life?
Consecrating the Mundane: In what ways can you integrate liturgy, theology, asceticism, and mysticism into your everyday tasks?
Manifesting Christ in Daily Life: How can you see Christ in the ordinary aspects of your life and in the people you encounter daily?
Standing by the Cross: How do you assist at Mass and relate it to standing near the cross with Mary?
Eucharistic Participation: How does your participation in the Eucharist nourish and capacitate you for spiritual warfare and service?
Liturgical and Cosmic Connection: How do you perceive the connection between liturgical practices and God’s cosmic plan for redemption?
Spiritual Discipline: How can you cultivate a disciplined, ascetic spirituality in your life?
Sanctifying the Secular: In what specific ways can you sanctify the secular world through your actions and relationships?
Living the Paschal Mystery: How do you live out the Paschal mystery in both your internal spiritual life and external actions?
Recognizing Divine Nourishment: How do you recognize and respond to the ways Christ and the Church nourish you spiritually in your daily journey?

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).